I have been watching the Republican debate on MSNBC tonight. It seems as though the other candidates are going to dance with Romney about his religion rather than face up to him about it. Trying not to stir waters until they have to. I think their hope is that he will fade from the front of the pack and then they won't have to personally take on the issue themselves.
Most probably, if he retains an up front ranking, then later they will turn the swift boat types loose on him.
The Church of the Latter Day Saints of Utah has had a contentious history with other religions in America. Romney says out loud that he is a Christian. What does he mean when he says that? Would a Methodist church accept his transfer of membership if he wanted to join it? Would the First Southern Baptist Church of Podunk, Texas let him in without a spiritual overhaul? What about the official Catholic position?
Might as well get the conversation started, cause the politicians are not going to start it yet.
What say you readers? (both of you)
Is an LDS member by definition (a.k.a. Mormon) a Christian?
Try to avoid ad hoc, circular, "because I (or James Dobson) say so", and egregious attack arguments.
Just the facts mam, says Joe Friday.
8 comments:
My position, at the moment, is that anyone who says he or she is trying to follow Jesus, and exhibits anything close to the New Testament view, is a Christian.
I'm liberal and, you know, mainstream that way.
Which means that I don't know what to do with bastardizations of Jesus. See www.godhatesfags.com.
Question:
Is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a Christian church?
Answer:
M. Russell Ballard, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said:
"There are many who say that Latter-day Saints believe in a 'different Jesus' than do other Christians and that we are therefore not 'Christian.' . . . We believe in the Jesus of the New Testament, and we believe what the New Testament teaches about Him. We do believe things about Jesus that other Christians do not believe, but that is because we know, through revelation, things about Jesus that others do not know. . . . " (his dots)
Book of Mormon witnesses of Christ
Just as the Bible contains witnesses of Jesus Christ from the Holy Land, the Book of Mormon contains witnesses of Jesus Christ from ancient America. For this reason, the Book of Mormon is called “Another Testament of Jesus Christ.”
Here are some examples of Book of Mormon witnesses of Christ:
After His Resurrection, Christ appeared to the people of ancient America and invited them to come forward one by one to see and touch Him until “they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves” (3 Nephi 11:13–17).
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude afell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been bprophesied among them that Christ should cshow himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.
13 And it came to pass that the aLord spake unto them saying:
14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may athrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may bfeel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the cGod of Israel, and the God of the whole dearth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.
15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and adid feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.
16 And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:
17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did aworship him.
18 And it came to pass that he spake unto aNephi (for Nephi was among the multitude) and he commanded him that he should come forth.
19 And Nephi arose and went forth, and abowed himself before the Lord and did bkiss his feet.
20 And the Lord commanded him that he should aarise. And he arose and stood before him.
21 And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven.
If your asking politically, it doesn't matter theologically. (Although there could be political ramification)
This is how I handle the JW's and Mormons in particular theologically. They are not "Christian," in a strong technical sense. Now, are they followers of Christ? Will some of them be in heaven? Possibly. Just like we'll see Catholics and Baptists and Methodists in heaven and hell.
They are not "conforming" to orthodox Christian thought. Therefore, that is why I say they are not "Christian."
I know this stance is open to attack. But again, i am not saying they won't be in heaven or are not trying to follow Christ. I am saying they are well outiside what has been previously been defined as what "Christians" believe.
If someone says they're a Christian, I'm always hesitant to say, "No, you're not."
If I remember right, however, Joseph Smith, his own self, refused to call his little group of believers Christians because he thought all those who used the title had got it all wrong and were corrupt. He preferred the term "saints" and their referral now to themselves as Christians is a later development. A cynic might even say their referral to themselves now as Christians is an attempt to become more mainstream and acceptable and thus increase their numbers.
The Jesus they follow is not the historical Jesus of the Bible. Their version is wildly different, and that troubles me, too. But, some of the sweetest, most fruit-bearing people I know are Mormons and I'm not about to say they won't make it into heaven or that they're not Christians.
That's about as close as I can get to an answer on this subject. :P
Crystal
Hum, I guess I was asking about the LDS as an entity, not necessarily about individual members of the LDS. Jesus, cryptically said to his disciples that he had sheep that you know not of. Judging individuals is God's business. Judging political entities such a "Churches" is the responsibility of all good Citizens when such entities become emmeshed in our government business.
Jesus is just a sword. Christian is just a word. It is what you pour into them from yourself that creates their realities for you. Mostly we put into them what we have gotten from our Church, mostly not all. Most Southern Baptist hold a consistance concept in and among themselves and the "Church" has a pretty well defined definition of both words.
So when you go to the LDS and look for such, you get such simple explainations and circular definitions and references that one becomes suspicious. By the time you dig past the first layer of dissonance you can beging to see that the LDS Church Jesus is far different from the Protestant/Catholic Jesus, and Joseph Smith himself says so.(As did Crystal in her Post)
So should a man who wants to be my President say that up front and out loud? Now,I know that not every member of every church knows every thing about their church's theologies. But shouldn't they if they an ordained Priest of that church? When is Spin a lie?
When is the lack of direct questions to illustrate such lies collusion?
Based on the reaction to Al Sharpton's non-statement the LDS plans of making a fight of this. I guess, they think they have forfited the "Black" vote anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbgfp_2JQf4
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