drlobojo is not a doctor, nor is he a wolf, although he has been called a cur on occasion, nor is he a jo which is Scottish for sweetheart having never been called that to his recollection. He is a pre-Atomic (born before the first bomb blast in New Mexico), a boy off of the Red River of Oklahoma, son of a share cropper, and poor white trash at that.
Tuesday, February 5, 2008
Yet again the ICON
Here are some more pictures for the expert (or curious) among you to examine.
Remember to enlarge the picture, click on the image.
Any help?
I was only mildly curious before. Now I'm getting interested.
Thanks for the extra photos. I had originally thought it might be a double figure icon but now I can see it's obviously a single. See your original post thread for my initial comments. I will show it to a Russian iconographer on Sunday. But I am fairly certain it is of Slavonic origin (Russian, Ukrainian or whatever) and the lettering is probably Cyrillic. I do not think it is Barbara because the crown is more indicative of Catherine, Helen, Tatiana, Theodora or Theophania. I'm leaning toward Catherine but my eyes still can't reconcile it with the lettering. I'll have to defer to the iconographer or see if I can compare it to what we may have on hand.
Admitting my knowledge of iconography is limited to what has been posted here, a couple of observations: typically, each saint is depicted with associated objects. In the case of the crown, this may indicate either royalty or the crown of martyrdom-so those saints mentioned qualify in that sense (unless these two types of crowns are depicted differently in some manner). Secondly, on the lower right we see part of circle with possible spokes- a wheel? Which would point towards Catherine of Alexandria (or Catherine of the wheel). I agree that the lettering looks cyrillic, but am unsure of where and when that script has been used. Like you, Lobojo, I am curious as to where the discussion will lead and what will be found. ..Anxiously awaiting radiocarbon dating results!
Are there any orthodox churches in your area (don't know where, exactly, in OK you live)? A priest might get all goose-pimply over this, and have resources to guide your search.
I think it's a beautiful piece. As a pretty high-church United Methodist, I have a few icons, mostly as art-work rather than as bits of magic, which was their original function. Someone made my wife a kneeler for Christmas, and one of our icons hangs above it.
Good luck on your continued and continuing search for answers.
Excellent catch on the wheel at the bottom right. I had not noticed that until you pointed it out. I think that pretty much settles it as being Catherine. I'll see if the iconographer can add anything though his English is very limited and my Russian is non-existent. As for Cyrillic, it dates from mid- to late-800 AD and is still used by iconographers today. Saints Cyril and Methodius are generally credited with its creation and the spreading of Christianity to the Slavonic regions.
I can see the lettering a little better in that one close-up pic, and it's Cyrillic-- probably very OLD Cyrillic. I've been trying to decipher the name, but when I try to translate the letters into English, I get "MEDBENIKO." As you can probably tell, I don't read Cyrillic. ;-)
I think BB is right-- it might be Catherine because of the wheel, which I hadn't noticed before... but the name doesn't look like Catherine. I'm stumped.
So I'm following up on Saint Katherine of Alexandria and find that there is an article in today's (Feb 5 2008) NYT Art section about her and her origins. Life is indeed strange. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE4D91731F934A1575BC0A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1
All of a sudden this Icon has a whole new meaning for me.
Ugh, just read the New York Times article. As an Orthodox Christian I find it an extremely offensive piece of revisionist history writing. I'm outta here.
jmitro said; "As an Orthodox Christian I find it an extremely offensive piece of revisionist history writing. I'm outta here."
No offense was indended. It is just part of the back story. The more story, the more interesting the subject. Such as the fact that the Island off of L.A., Santa Catalina is named after her. Be advised that ole ER and myself are approaching this from the viewpoint of historians.
The various stories are independent of what this icon is. As an object of veneration it will treated and displayed as such. But if you want, of course you can disengage. Thanks for your help. It was very valuable and greatly appreciated. Trixie thanks to you for enlisting jmitro's aid.
Curious about radiocarbon dating, I checked prices. U Georgia seems typical http://www.uga.edu/~cais/programs_applications/radiocarbon_apps/radiocarbon_dating.htm $300-450. Quite a bit more than the original 25 cent investment!
OK, For those of you not offended by my far ranging curiosity. Any closure you can offer on whether or not this is Saint Catherine will still be appreciated.
I have flipped, enlarge, and accented some elements of the original Icon on 300 year acid free ink and paper and mounted those with the original Icon in a protective box frame. See new blog for picture.
Oh yes, bb-idaho, now with archival materials, 300 year inks and printing, non-gassing backing and adhesives plus the box frame the investment has far exceed the original 25 cent. Might as well pop for radiocarbon dating too. (Just Kidding)
ER, For objects of actual "Veneration" sensitivity is paramount. Especially when they are in the hands of perceived heretics.
One very orthodox source however suggested that she may have "disposed of" because of her disavowment by the Catholic Church. In that , whatever the Icon's source, it ain't Roman Catholic, I'm not sure she would agree with that evaluation, nor did that source actually advocate that position either. But it might explain how I came to have her. Strange world.
15 comments:
Trixie's freind here.
Thanks for the extra photos. I had originally thought it might be a double figure icon but now I can see it's obviously a single. See your original post thread for my initial comments. I will show it to a Russian iconographer on Sunday. But I am fairly certain it is of Slavonic origin (Russian, Ukrainian or whatever) and the lettering is probably Cyrillic. I do not think it is Barbara because the crown is more indicative of Catherine, Helen, Tatiana, Theodora or Theophania. I'm leaning toward Catherine but my eyes still can't reconcile it with the lettering. I'll have to defer to the iconographer or see if I can compare it to what we may have on hand.
Admitting my knowledge of iconography is limited to what has been posted here, a couple of observations: typically, each saint is depicted with associated
objects. In the case of the crown, this may indicate either royalty or the crown of martyrdom-so those saints mentioned qualify in that sense (unless these two types of crowns are depicted differently in some manner). Secondly, on the lower right we
see part of circle with possible spokes- a wheel? Which would point towards Catherine of Alexandria (or Catherine of the wheel). I agree that the lettering looks cyrillic, but
am unsure of where and when that
script has been used. Like you, Lobojo, I am curious as to where
the discussion will lead and what will be found. ..Anxiously awaiting
radiocarbon dating results!
Are there any orthodox churches in your area (don't know where, exactly, in OK you live)? A priest might get all goose-pimply over this, and have resources to guide your search.
I think it's a beautiful piece. As a pretty high-church United Methodist, I have a few icons, mostly as art-work rather than as bits of magic, which was their original function. Someone made my wife a kneeler for Christmas, and one of our icons hangs above it.
Good luck on your continued and continuing search for answers.
bb-idaho,
Excellent catch on the wheel at the bottom right. I had not noticed that until you pointed it out. I think that pretty much settles it as being Catherine. I'll see if the iconographer can add anything though his English is very limited and my Russian is non-existent. As for Cyrillic, it dates from mid- to late-800 AD and is still used by iconographers today. Saints Cyril and Methodius are generally credited with its creation and the spreading of Christianity to the Slavonic regions.
I can see the lettering a little better in that one close-up pic, and it's Cyrillic-- probably very OLD Cyrillic. I've been trying to decipher the name, but when I try to translate the letters into English, I get "MEDBENIKO." As you can probably tell, I don't read Cyrillic. ;-)
I think BB is right-- it might be Catherine because of the wheel, which I hadn't noticed before... but the name doesn't look like Catherine. I'm stumped.
So I'm following up on Saint Katherine of Alexandria and find that there is an article in today's (Feb 5 2008) NYT Art section about her and her origins.
Life is indeed strange.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE4D91731F934A1575BC0A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1
All of a sudden this Icon has a whole new meaning for me.
Idn't that fricking cool? :-)
Ugh, just read the New York Times article. As an Orthodox Christian I find it an extremely offensive piece of revisionist history writing. I'm outta here.
jmitro said; "As an Orthodox Christian I find it an extremely offensive piece of revisionist history writing. I'm outta here."
No offense was indended.
It is just part of the back story. The more story, the more interesting the subject. Such as the fact that the Island off of L.A., Santa Catalina is named after her. Be advised that ole ER and myself are approaching this from the viewpoint of historians.
The various stories are independent of what this icon is. As an object of veneration it will treated and displayed as such. But if you want, of course you can disengage.
Thanks for your help. It was very valuable and greatly appreciated. Trixie thanks to you for enlisting jmitro's aid.
Curious about radiocarbon dating, I checked prices. U Georgia seems typical http://www.uga.edu/~cais/programs_applications/radiocarbon_apps/radiocarbon_dating.htm
$300-450.
Quite a bit more than the original
25 cent investment!
Radiocarbon dating, yep that would make the total investment about $425.25.
Wow. I might be offended at that feller's offense! ... Naaah. But I sure don't get it. Atall.
OK, For those of you not offended by my far ranging curiosity. Any closure you can offer on whether or not this is Saint Catherine will still be appreciated.
I have flipped, enlarge, and accented some elements of the original Icon on 300 year acid free ink and paper and mounted those with the original Icon in a protective box frame. See new blog for picture.
Oh yes, bb-idaho, now with archival materials, 300 year inks and printing, non-gassing backing and adhesives plus the box frame the investment has far exceed the original 25 cent. Might as well pop for radiocarbon dating too. (Just Kidding)
ER, For objects of actual "Veneration" sensitivity is paramount. Especially when they are in the hands of perceived heretics.
One very orthodox source however suggested that she may have "disposed of" because of her disavowment by the Catholic Church.
In that , whatever the Icon's source, it ain't Roman Catholic, I'm not sure she would agree with that evaluation, nor did that source actually advocate that position either. But it might explain how I came to have her.
Strange world.
E.R., you don't get it because you are not an Orthodox Christian.
Post a Comment